radiaSRT/srt/72 K Venugopal Jun 16 2009 19 51 37.srt
2011-12-22 18:04:02 +05:30

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(Phone rings)
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Niira Radia: Yeah, hi.
Mans Voice: Yeah, yeah, its better now, tell me.
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Niira Radia: (Clears throat) And then you have to recall, you know, Spectrum, and then Sunil Mittal went to court and everything and so did SUI and Tatas and everybody with it.
K. Venugopal: Yeah.
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Niira Radia: Then we come to Gas, yesterday, you know, how High Court decides on something which is really the domain of the government and its a natural resource and weve got a situation in the case of Tata Steel which we are fighting, where Iron Ore mines, where Anil Ambani has applied for Iron Ore mines in Jharkand and he doesnt even have a steel plant.
K. Venugopal: Hmm, hmmm hmm.
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Niira Radia: And, and if you remember the coal diversion on the Sasan issue happened after the nuclear deal and Amar Singh had stepped inand this whole EGoM thing where, well, you know theres an issue where the High Court has said whether we have the locus standi, well fine, Tatas have taken a fall and theyll go to the Supreme Court and they are in Supreme Court already -
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Niira Radia: - so Im sure that we will see some respite as far as Supreme Court is concerned and then you have this whole TDSAT issue in Spectrum where the attachment was so cleverly worded and then Dr. Sarma transferred to TRAI as a reward as the TRAI chairman, you know the point Im making is that whether its Mukesh Amabani or Anil Ambani or Tatas I think it doesnt really matter who it is, I think at the end of the day these are countrys national resources.
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K. Venugopal: Uh, huh, hmmm, hmm.
Niira Radia: It cant be decided by a regional leader, it cant be decided by ministers who have sort of agendas, it cant be decided by High Court who really dont understand this, or by state governments in the case of, lets say in Tamil Nadu when we had the Titanium issue or if you look at the Bellary what Yedyurappa is doing today with the mines there.
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K. Venugopal: Hmm...
Niira Radia: Or for that matter Madhu Koda. You know I had a meeting in Ranchi with Madhu Koda many months back before the government, before the Presidents rule was called -
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K. Venugopal: Hmm...
Niira Radia: He had a straight deal, he said 150 crores and Ill give you the Anqua mine for Tata Steel (chuckles).
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Niira Radia: So my reaction was Mr. Koda you can do what you like, well go to court because well not pay a cent. Anyway in the end we, thank god, Presidents rule was declared and whatever, we went to the governor, we appealed -
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Niira Radia: - we went to court, and (clears throat) so you look at this, weve got people like you know, Koda, youve got Yedyurappa in Karnataka, youve had DMK in for that matter Jayalalitha in Tamil Nadu and Titanium, you had Spectrum where you had Raja, you had Maran before that..
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K. Venugopal: Hmm.
Niira Radia: Then youve got, you know, gas where again theres a government-determined price you know and, and then somebody benefits and its all for the benefit of whether its one corporate or the other.
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K. Venugopal: Yeah.
Niira Radia: Where is the national policy on national resources?
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K. Venugopal: Hmmm, hmm, hmmm.
Niira Radia: For that matter, for someone like the Prime Minister, I dont think theres anybody else whos credible enough other than the Prime Minister today to look at this and say, look, Im going to decide, whether it is - and l cannot not allow this to be decided at a state level or a, at court or tribunals - tribunals have no - I dont think they should have the jurisdiction
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K. Venugopal: Hmm, hmm, hmm.
Niira Radia: You know Raja continues to, Ive and Ive had another argument with him only this last week when I said you do not give Anil Ambani 6.25 megahertz spectrum without giving out 4.4, otherwise we will go to court
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K. Venugopal: Hmm.
Niira Radia: And we will go against you even though Mr. Tata has written a wonderful letter about you to your Chief Minister many many months ago, but that doesnt mean he doesnt have the right to change his mind.
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K. Venugopal: Hmm, hmm, hmm.
Niira Radia: So you know when Ive been in the midst of seeing how these manipulative policies have been happening Ive been in the midst the thick of it from both my clients point of view.
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K. Venugopal: (laughs) I know all this, this is awful -
Niira Radia: Isnt it?
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K. Venugopal: - a judgement saying you can go back to Kokilaben -
Niira Radia: Ya!
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K. Venugopal: What is the, what is the locus standi of (inaudible) -
Niira Radia: - Of Kokilaben. Yeah! This is the countrys national resource youre talking about!
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K. Venugopal: And decided by Kokilaben.
Niira Radia: Yeah. Absolutely, you know, ah, Venu, when you read that judgment it even says let it, let us not think that there are no remedial measures.
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K. Venugopal: Hmm.
Niira Radia: (indistinct) So subjective!
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K. Venugopal: Hmm.
Niira Radia: Ive seen this even in the case of TDSAT.
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K. Venugopal: Hmm.
Niira Radia: I mean Ive seen them how they patted the minister on the back when we know that in the middle of the night it happened and LOIs were issued in the middle of the night and -
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Niira Radia: I know how Vanavati has called ah Anil Saldanah and all of us and said, you know, dont oppose minister, dont oppose this, well ensure that you get your spectrum.
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K. Venugopal: Hmm.
Niira Radia: And Anil, Ive maintained with Anil Saldanah, I do not fall for all this you know because you dont know whats going to happen tomorrow this guy - and thats exactly what has happened he gets his 4.4 megahertz, no other LOI is issued till after he gets his 4.4 megahertz.
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K. Venugopal: Hmm.
Niira Radia: Then everybody else starts getting spectrum after Swan and you know the Swan saga and...(indiscenible)
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K. Venugopal: Yes. Hmm.
Niira Radia: You know the problem - the point is we dont know who -
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Niira Radia: - unless media is going to take a view, unless they are all going to get up and say something, you cant leave it to High Court judges to decide whether mother should decide on countrys national resources. What incentive is there for anyone to invest in this country then? Its a banana republic.
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K. Venugopal: Hmm yeah, its amazing and it, uh, here its not a clean license, its a profit-sharing license.
Niira Radia: Thats right!
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K. Venugopal: Where, uh, and profit sharing with the government, so -
Niira Radia: Yeah, and the government!
K. Venugopal: Pricing is important -
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Niira Radia: Pricing is important, yeah, he is only the operator! Hes only the operator! He has nothing to do with what the policy will be, where it is distributed, what happens, the government decides all that. And you know the best part is, the MoU, Ive seen the MoU, right, doesnt have anything on it about 2.34.
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Niira Radia: It says NTPC pricing. NTPC agreement was on the basis of L1 because Reliance had bid to supply gas to NTPC on the basis of L1.
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Niira Radia: The LoI itself which Ive seen, says, "Subject to Government Approval". Its different that NTPC and RIL landed up in court not on price but on unlimited liability. Because NTPC insisted that they wanted unlimited liability because RIL was not in a position to supply gas.
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Niira Radia: So the - even there in their agreement when they sent it back finally which we didnt enter into, it said, NTPCs own agreement says, "Subject to Government Approval. Now what happens if government tomorrow, I mean tomorrow the NTPC pricing is settled at 4.2, so what happens to this High Court judgement?
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(Pause)
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K. Venugopal: Mmm.
Niira Radia: And then youve got this -
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K. Venugopal: So, the MoU says - talks about uhhhh NTPC prices -
Niira Radia: Yeah, its very clear it says subject to -
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K. Venugopal: Which MoU?
Niira Radia: MoU between the two brothers.
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K. Venugopal: Oh, all right, mmm.
Niira Radia: It says the pricing will be determined as per NTPC pricing.
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K. Venugopal: Hmm, hmm hmm hmm.
Niira Radia: NTPC pricing is in dispute, not by us but because NTPC itself has acknowledged that the price is subject to the approval of the government.
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K. Venugopal: If the government tomorrow clearly says its 4 -4.2...
Niira Radia: Yes.
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K. Venugopal: For NTPC, then it becomes 4.2.
Niira Radia: Then it becomes 4.2. But the question is, in the meantime, what have you done? You know you as a judge have turned around and issued I mean in the (inaudible) statement I mean (inaudible) -
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K. Venugopal: How - how did this happen? How did this judge do this?
Niira Radia: I (laughs) I dont want to comment or cast aspersions but seriously somebody needs to look at his past judgments and look at his current judgment and see whether the language is the same -
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K. Venugopal: Hmm.
Niira Radia: I can tell you there are almost ten different instances in the entire judgment where hes gone subjective completely. He even talks about an MoU that was cited, you know the government at the board meeting that specific board meeting of 2005 in June when this whole demerger scheme was decided and so on.
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Niira Radia: Then he talks about what was said in this MoU in the board meeting - in the minutes of the board of - of...of the board meeting. Now the minutes of the board meeting have been produced before the court. He uses words in his judgment which are not part of the minutes of the board!
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K. Venugopal: Hmmm.
Niira Radia: Which are discussion between board members, so how does he know all this?
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K. Venugopal:Hmm, hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm...So whos going to the Supreme Court now?
Niira Radia: They'll have to go to the Supreme Court. Reliance cant sit quiet, theyll have to go to supreme court I mean between you and me theres no no no other way about it. Like and even Tatas have gone on Sasan to Supreme Court because youve seen in the High Court what happened in the case of Spectrum -
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K. Venugopal: How is Anil more influential on the High Court side?
Niira Radia: Vanavati.
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K. Venugopal: Hmmm.
Niira Radia: Vanavati. Youve seen that in TDSAT. Its coming from there hes completely you know beholden to Amar Singh and all that.
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K. Venugopal: Mmmhmm, hmm, hmm.
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(pause, disturbance)
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Niira Radia: I mean, Ive been party to a meeting I mean where Vanavati has told Anil Saldanah: Do not oppose Mr. Raja.
K. Venugopal: Hmm.
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Niira Radia: On this. We will make sure you get your spectrum, Im giving you my word, isnt my word good enough?
K. Venugopal: Hmm.
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Niira Radia: I walked out of that meeting with Anil Saldanah I said Anil do not allow this. Dont accept this, dont accept anyone, you know, telling you anything, you go by what is legally right for you.
K. Venugopal: Hmm.
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Niira Radia: Isnt it Mr. Raja I mean as much as I get along with him I still go back and tell him what I think.
K. Venugopal: Hmm. (laughs) What does he say?
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Niira Radia: "What can I do Niira? The court has decided." I said, Mr. Raja, who is the court? Arun Kumar? Appointed by who? Dr. Sarma? Youve rewarded him as TRAI chairman. Do you think he has any credibility?
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Niira Radia:I mean if you had not appointed him even though Dr. Sarma was a fairly upright guy until this judgement happened. If you had not appointed him as the TRAI chairman, we may have said yes, okay, maybe, you know the judgment is okay but youve just gone and rewarded him and now youre saying everything on the allocation of spectrum Im going to send back to him.
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Niira Radia: Hows he going to oppose his own judgment? He cannot contradict -
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K. Venugopal: What happened today? He is supposed to have met Prime Minister on this -
Niira Radia: Ya, he met FM in the morning -
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K. Venugopal: Yes, sorry FM -
Niira Radia: And hes gone back in the evening again. I think its a pricing of 20-22 odd theyre going to come to a settlement of an in-between price.
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Niira Radia: But one of the views is that the 3G auction, you know this whole thing of pricing 2G beyond 6.25 may be decided after the 3G auction takes place. So they may expedite the 3G auction first.
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K. Venugopal: Yeah, 3G auction means you know, say they have to decide whether it is three players of 8 megahertz or whether 5 players of 5 megahertz.
Niira Radia: Yeah and in the evening I think hes asking for extra slots. But his view is that we should go for 8 players, or 7 players at least at 5 megahertz.
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K. Venugopal: Does he have 35 megahertz there.
Niira Radia: Yes, they've got (indiscernible), they've got 40. But you know what will happen Venu, they get, you know, 5 megahertz okay - it can start you off on a 3G network and its voice only -
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K. Venugopal: But, but then uh -
Niira Radia: Its not efficient.
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K. Venugopal: Hmm
Niira Radia: Its not efficient. But three players will be in partnership -
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K. Venugopal: But you should buy if you know rules should say there should be uh, virtual operator , they can operate thing but uh roaming should be...I mean any operator should be able to get in.
Niira Radia: Absolutely, yeah.
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K. Venugopal: See, if I have a 3G phone I have lets say Vodafone and Vodafone doesnt have a 3G license, Vodafone customers must be allowed to roam on some other, there must be some arrangement with one of the 3G holders, so that should be built into the license because otherwise its unfair -
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Niira Radia: Thats right, thats right because then you -
K. Venugopal: - to consumers.
Niira Radia: - consumers , completely.
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K. Venugopal: Because I am, because it would be, just because I am left with somebody who doesnt have a 3G license my phone should not be denied I mean...today I have a 2G service but if I want to go to 3G I must gravitate to a person whos got 3G license.
Niira Radia: Yeah (indistinct, disturbance)
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K. Venugopal: Hmm?
Niira Radia: Itll allow you (inaudible) -
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K. Venugopal: Or as a consumer should I not be better served if I should be allowed to roam on a 3G network?
Niira Radia: (indistinct) The 2G operators basically have an agreement with the 3G operator which will serve him a better or a higher (inaudible) which hell pass on to the consumer in any case so (inaudible) -
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K. Venugopal: You see it is not happening with VSNL , VSNL is a closed door, nobody can roam on VSNL.
Niira Radia: Hmm, thats right.
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K. Venugopal: Suppose you were in a godforsaken place where only VSNL has a connection.
Niira Radia: Yeah, you cant roam on it.
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K. Venugopal: You cant roam on it.
Niira Radia: Yeah, which is ridiculous isnt it and then you are ready to open last mile on top of all that, over and above that, but you know.
K. Venugopal: Yeah -
(Tape ends abruptly)