(Phone rings)
Niira Radia: Hi. R. Sridharan, ET Now: Hi, How are you?
Niira Radia: [laughs] I am alright, how are you? R. Sridharan: [laughs] Good, good.
Niira Radia: Look, I am trying to get you Kishore Chaukar [Managing Director, Tata Industries and Chairman, TCCI] and Gopal [Perhaps R Gopalakrishnan, executive director of Tata Sons]. R. Sridharan: But Gopal, I don't think, he is there in the country around that time?
Niira Radia: Sixth, I think, he is there. R. Sridharan: He is there?
Niira Radia: Yeah, I was told he might be there, maybe, he is going, yeah, he is going on the 2nd. R. Sridharan: Hmmm, but what about Ravikant and Krishna Kumar?
Niira Radia: Ravi refused, and Krishna Kumar won’t do it. KK never does it. R. Sridharan: Why?
Niira Radia: Eight years, they wont do it. Don’t...I can ask but he won’t do - there is outright rejection on these issues. They don’t come for any budget. Have you ever seen KK - (inaudible) R. Sridharan: No, that's why we thought.
Niira Radia: He never does it, he doesn’t do it. So I don’t want to approach him. [Manoj] Sonawala, Arun [Kumar] Gandhi, they don’t do it. R. Sridharan: Hmm.
Niira Radia: Ishant Kush Chaukar... the MDs, Muthuraman, the CFOs, people in - probably , I will see whether a Tata Motors CFO will come or a Tata Steels CFO will come. I am checking, who is available where... R. Sridharan: Ok, but Muthuraman can come?
Niira Radia: Muthu is out of the country. R. Sridharan: Ok, and Ravikant, he is also out of country?
Niira Radia: He is...he outright turned it down. R. Sridharan: Ohhh.
Niira Radia: I sent him a mail last night. He has come back, he is in London today, but he sent me a mail back last night only, saying please keep me out of all this. R. Sridharan: [laughs] Ok.
Niira Radia: Yeah (inaudible). I expected him to reject, because Bodhi also approached me for a pre-budget briefing on 22nd. At that time also he had said no. A lot of the Tata guys don't really want to do it, you know. But they I think Kishore and some 3-4 of them, I will try and get - out of them, we will see because I got CNBC on my case. So... get that.
R. Sridharan: Yeah , I can imagine that, everyone must be, you know, chasing you for all these guys. Niira Radia: Yeah, so they don't generally go for budget briefings, I must tell you that. But -
R. Sridharan: And RIL has the same story na , no one from RIL has (inaudible) budget... Niira Radia: (inaudible) They don't get into this.
R. Sridharan: I know, about these two groups, they really can't comment on the budget and, so um hmmm okay, so - Niira Radia: I will try even despite that I am trying to see whether I will get you Ishant on air. He is not agreeing right now, but let's see, but I will get you couple of the Tata guys. But I can’t promise all of them because it's just not possible. I'll have to give a couple to CNBC also.
R. Sridharan: Like who, but you are giving us the more important ones right? Niira Radia: Hmm hmm hmm (chuckles). They say the same thing to me na, I can't.. I will give you both a fair split.
R. Sridharan: Hmmm? Niira Radia: So I will give you one ECC each and one CFO each.
R. Sridharan: No but the biggest have to come to us yeah, obviously otherwise what's the point, having known you for so many years, and all that Niira Radia: CNBC can say same thing to me na?
R. Sridharan: Haan but I don't think uh... Niira Radia: No Sridhar, (laughs) How is my friend? You went for your briefing with Chalasani?
R. Sridharan: Uh, no but I think, some of my people may have - Niira Radia: Haan.
R. Sridharan: They are now giving - telling - the story for them is that, how they need to lay a pipeline, and all that - Niira Radia: How they need to lay a pipeline?
R. Sridharan: They don’t need to lay a pipeline to Dadri because they can use you know the HBJ pipeline and all that. Niira Radia: (chuckles).
R. Sridharan: Hmm, so what to...? Niira Radia: You know we'll go to Supreme Court and look, my argument is very simple and I was telling Rahul this morning, because he called me to say look we will be very fair on the coverage and all that. I said yeah, you carried news, that's fine with me, and I am pleased with TK Arun's position.
R. Sridharan: Hmm. Niira Radia: You see, I am very clear because in the case of Tata Power, on Sasan, we fought coal. R. Sridharan: Hmm, yeah yeah, I know that.
Niira Radia: In the case of Spectrum, natural resource, Mr. Raja, good old Mr. Raja issued Spectrum on retrospective basis. Sunil Mittal's in Supreme Court. TDSAT, you saw the judgment, they fixed it, right?. Gas, natural resource. No pricing has been determined, yet subjected to government approval, right? I don’t know where the court has gone into deciding that government doesn't need to approve pricing. Iron ore, Tata Steel fighting in Jharkhand, where Anil Ambani trying to take iron ore mines..
R. Sridharan: For what? Niira Radia: When he doesn't even have a steel plant.
R. Sridharan: Haan. Niira Radia: So we have a guy, who is taking natural resources for personal profit. There has to be some sort of policy in this country, which, says Mr. Rajas or Mr. Shindes, or you know coal ministers will not be allowed to allocate — or Murali Deora for that matter. These will all go to through a process and they will be done at highest level, because they are natural resources. You can't have a High Court giving a judgement based on the two brothers fighting, no? And then saying go back to Kokilaben, I mean, it makes a mockery of the whole thing.
R. Sridharan: True Niira Radia: I can say this because I am fighting both my clients. I can see what my Tata Power is going through, I can see what my Tata Steel is going through.
R. Sridharan: Hmm. Niira Radia: You are leaving decisions at State level, you are leaving at Central level, at - with a politicians who say, I have a party to support, and I have elections to fight in 2011.
Niira Radia: Hmm, but how strong is your case in Supreme Court? Because uh - Niira Radia: It's very well...
R. Sridharan: - It should go back to the family agreement, right? Niira Radia: Na na na na na (No no no no), I don’t think so, I think he has interpreted it very well. I can - the judgement if you read it if you read all the 364 pages of it, there is lot there.
R. Sridharan: I started reading it, yeah. Niira Radia: There is a lot there. I don’t think any judge can just go on blindly, and I feel I can give you the font, comma, full stop. You read the TDSAT judgment. And you see the arguments on Supreme Court in TDSAT. This will give tremendous fodder to Sunil Mittal in Supreme Court. Because I know Tata Power, they want the Supreme Court on the, on the Sassan issue. I've seen that judgement...and I can tell you one thing, this is something very seriously wrong, I am not saying this because because of Reliance, or because I feel emotional, may be I am bit emotional. But I just say one fundamental thing, that you know, as someone , who is watching this happen at very close quarters, I mean, I've seen Mr Raja telling me, I mean even though he's a friend of mine, Kii (that) "Niira, don’t, you know, Spectrum, thiik hai (alright) Niira, you know, I have a party to support." And then I've seen Dr. Sarma , who has been, one of the most upright telecom officer, who’s turned down completely on his own, on his own policies.
R. Sridharan: See but Raja (inaudibe)...Raja is a bastard, no doubt about it.
Niira Radia: No, but Raja, Spectrum, he gave it to him in the middle of the night and the LOI got issued, so even are the natural resource. R. Sridharan: Hmmm
Niira Radia: Even coal are natural resource, you get EGOM issues to change the rules of the game. After the bid process is over. R. Sridharan: True.
Niira Radia: Iron ore, I am fighting for mines in Jharakhand, and I know about politicians are asking 150 crores. Where we refused to give, we were in court because of that, and this guy goes and gets iron ore mines allocated.
R. Sridharan: But what, why has it, why has he been given iron ore mines? What is he going to do with it? Niira Radia: Because, he wants to start, he's signed a MOU with State Government. He's saying I am going to start a steel plant.
R. Sridharan: Ahead of all that, they've given him the land. Niira Radia: You get gas...They start, you start a process. You know how those things take a (inaudible). You have not even got land acquisition. In case the of power, he is talking about Dadri having land. Tell him to show you where he's got land. He doesn’t have land. Shahpur I appreciate, because even Tata Power is getting land in Shahpur. But you are telling me you don't have - then you have government that allots three UNPPs to the same party.
R. Sridharan: Hmm, that's true, which even Shinde says as the mistake now. Niira Radia: Yeah, no rules, what you know, you are banana republic or what?
R. Sridharan: True. Niira Radia: See, it can't, it can't work.
R. Sridharan: Nothing will come out of these three projects anyway. Niira Radia: Nahin, you know that, I know that. Right? We seen them with close quarters, we all know that right? But tell me one thing , you make a mockery of system all along. I am talking the other day, when Sunil Mittal (inaudible) has gone to court. Now Tatas are probably going to move against Raja also on Spectrum.
R. Sridharan: Hmm. Niira Radia: (Inaudible) that whole thing was issued, middle of night on 18th, and I have said this to Raja. You've given Anil Ambani a dual technology licence retrospective. You cannot get away with that. Tatas were the first in the queue. He would have to re-apply. Even if the application is there from 2007 also. That whole judgment has been completely, you know, by TDSAT. I know how Dr. Sarma has done that judgment. Raja's told me "Niira, nahii karna (don't do this), Niira, don’t do this, I will give you spectrum. I know Vanavati has called Anil ... Ambani, er, Anil Sardana and told him, don't oppose this. In court, we will make sure that you get the Spectrum.
R. Sridharan: Hmm. Niira Radia: So, the point I am making is, whatever happens to the brothers cannot be the basis on which a national resource can be decided.
R. Sridharan: True Niira Radia: Whether it is a Mukesh or whether it is Anil. That has to be set, there has to be pricing policy, that has to set by the government. A High Court judge is not qualified enough to do this.
R. Sridharan: No but now tell me, if you look at it, the case looks very very weak for RIL at least. Niira Radia: No no.
R. Sridharan: How are they going to, no, but how are they going to, what is the basis on which, they are going to say that this is wrong? Niira Radia: They won’t tell to you and me na, they wont tell you or me na. They will go to court and then fight.
R. Sridharan: They will tell you na, they will not tell me, but they will tell you. Niira Radia: But I won't tell you na. [pause]
R. Sridharan: No but broadly, what is the, what is the, when and much... Niira Radia: Na na naa (No no), I can’t tell you that, I think that enough legal argument that exists. Enough. I said more than enough. They will decide on the strategy and I think it's enough. You read the judgement. I as a layman, I didn't even have to talk to my client, I as a layman understood that judgment. And understood where it was coming from and it can never be the basis, so many legal flaws...Read the judgment. I will send it you. You have it?
R. Sridharan: No, no I have the copy, I have the copy. Niira Radia: Hmm, so read it. You should consult a legal guy. You know Mukul Rohatgi and them...who drafted it will only say what they have to say...but consult an independent -
R. Sridharan: See from Mukesh's point of view, this is really serious stuff, you know, Hardy has also said that, you know, there is a much needed discovery, there on KG basin and all that. So uh, this guy has claim on all additional production of gas also. On the KG basin right and all the new blocks. So what happens to RIL's valuations then? I mean, if a lot of the gas valuation is factored into it, right? If he has to share it with Anil Ambani, the valuation will fall.
Niira Radia: I would imagine that shareholders are gonna have a view: Why should you start, are you a fool to spend 7 billion dollars to give it for free to your brother, you know? At the end of the day, I am sure, there is a question mark that the share holder will raise himself. I think, I don't think Mukesh is stupid. I think the arguments that have been raised by the honourable High Court (chuckles) are a little flawed. I've seen that in case of Spectrum, it will be very interesting to see how the Supreme Court looks at that. and so I think, the argument is a larger one — you have to look at the natural resource of country.
R. Sridharan: Okay now tell me something, is there anyone at RIL who can at least, informally keep us informed on what - Niira Radia: Wait wait, I will tell you, once we've decided.
R. Sridharan: Haan. Niira Radia: Yeah.
R. Sridharan: So someone we can keep in touch with? Niira Radia: Yeah, I will let you know once we...
R. Sridharan: Thiik hai (Alright), so where are you? Delhi? Bombay? Niira Radia: I am in Delhi.
R. Sridharan: You are in Delhi, not coming for fire fighting thing? Niira Radia: No, I can do it from Delhi you know, (laughter) Niira Radia: Thanks to Mr. Raja still some Spectrum is left (laughs).
R. Sridharan: Ok, thiik hai, but when you are in Bombay next, let me know, I want to catch up with you. Niira Radia: I will do that - (Tape ends)