1
00:00:05,042 --> 00:00:10,182
(phone ringing)

2
00:00:10,182 --> 00:00:18,594
VS: Hi...
NR: Hi...sorry to disturb you...
VS: No, not disturbing. We're sitting and eating dal-chaval in Goa. Shooting over here.
NR: Oh wow!

3
00:00:18,594 --> 00:00:22,932
VS: Where are you?
NR: Delhi. Boring, old Delhi.

4
00:00:22,932 --> 00:00:31,069
VS: What is happening with the court judgement?
NR: You see Vir, there's a view I have on this, you know, like I mentioned to you in my SMS.
VS: Ya?

5
00:00:31,069 --> 00:00:50,643
NR: You see, when it came to coal, they were allowed to divert coal.
VS: Ya...
NR: Post that the decision happened of the EGoM to divert coal. What that effectively meant was that he could, after bidding for a UMPP he could divert coal to other projects and make lots of profits.
VS: Right.
NR: It was a decision between Shinde and a bunch of guys including Chidambaram.
VS: Okay.

6
00:00:50,643 --> 00:00:59,465
NR: We went to court in the High Court, the matter's gone to the Supreme Court, 'cause the High Court ruled against TATA Power. 
VS: Okay.

7
00:00:59,465 --> 00:01:20,529
NR: Spectrum - Mr Raja. You know everything about spectrum.... And he was given spectrum which is also natural resource. 
VS: Ya.
NR: Retrospectively, after issuing a policy in the middle of the night on the 18th of October, TATAs and everybody else were first in the queue. Because you issue a policy and then you say -'Okay, you applied to me in 2006 so I'll give you a licence first'.
VS: Ya.

8
00:01:20,529 --> 00:01:41,651
NR: For you, Mr Anil Ambani, becasue you're paying my party 500 crores, I'll give you spectrum in the middle of the night.
VS: Right...
NR: -Others will have to apply. I will issue the policy only the day after on the website.
VS: Ya.
NR: They will apply and I will issue them a policy only after I make sure that all your spectrum is safely in your hands.
VS: Alright
NR: - Which is exactly what happened.
VS: Ya..

9
00:01:41,651 --> 00:02:01,988
NR: They went to- Sunil Mittal, Tata, - everybody went to TDSAT.
VS: Right.
NR: TDSAT Dr Sarma, who was the former Telecom Secretary gave a judgement -
VS: Hmm.
NR: 364 pages, by the way. Very conveniently, the same number of pages of the judgement today, or yesterday - gave a judgement and then is rewarded by Mr Raja and becomes the TRAI chairman.
VS: Right.

10
00:02:01,988 --> 00:02:09,384
NR: So spectrum again- natural resource- we're still fighting the battle in Supreme court. Not only us, Sunil Mittal, everybody, Vodafone- everybody is fighting the battle, right.
VS: Okay.

11
00:02:09,384 --> 00:02:35,680
NR: Third one, gas. You have a High court who decides what should be the policy of gas- what should be the price of gas, ...based on the fact that the government has already said that it is a government-determined price.
VS: Right.
NR: 4.24 was derived at the point when RIL called for bids. 
VS: Hmm...
NR: And the government said- whatever is going to be the highest bid a price, which is H1, will set the pricing of the government.
VS: Okay.

12
00:02:35,680 --> 00:03:01,408
NR: In his MoU with his brother however, he signed an MoU which said -'whatever price I give to NTPC, I will give it to you at that price'.
VS: Right.
NR: NTPC price was determined on the basis that Mukesh had bid for gas on an L1 basis, which is 2.34
VS: Okay.
NR: But even that said 'subject to government approval'
VS: Okay
NR: Subsequently, the government came back and said the price is to be 4.2
VS: Okay

13
00:03:01,408 --> 00:03:14,967
NR: Why RIL went to court against NTPC was because NTPC wanted to give it unlimited liability.
VS: Okay
NR: RIL said no company can give unlimited liability, it will go bankrupt.
VS: Okay.
NR: Unlimited liability for supply of gas.
VS: Hm.

14
00:03:14,967 --> 00:03:31,134
NR: The fourth issue happens - Anil Ambani with Lakshmi Mittal - not so much Lakshmi Mittal -but Anil Ambani tries to go to Madhu Koda in Jharkhand.
VS: Right...
NR: - and says I want allocation of iron ore mines. Iron ore mines - when he doesn't even have a steel plant.
VS: Right

15
00:03:31,134 --> 00:03:38,984
NR: So all these four are natural resources. 
VS: Ya!
NR: All four - we are in Supreme court.
VS: Correct.

16
00:03:38,984 --> 00:03:50,017
NR: Now surely even at times when a governments will not decide whether an Yeddyurappa of the BJP will allocate a mine, -or a Madhu Koda, who wants 150 crores for the mine will allocate a mine.
NR: Or gas will be-
VS: Good point
NR: -determined by a High Court.
VS: Good point.

17
00:03:50,017 --> 00:03:57,177
NR: This is something that has to be done by the prime minister of this country.
VS: Right.
NR: There has to be one policy.
VS: Right, agreed.

18
00:03:57,177 --> 00:04:04,443
NR: DMK can't give us titanium in... you know projects are blocked. There's no employment, manufacturing sectors collapsed.
VS: Right

19
00:04:04,443 --> 00:04:12,402
NR: When you've got - an Amar Singh will go and have a nuclear deal, and tomorrow allocation of the mines will happen. Coal happened like that, by the way.
VS: How did that happen?

20
00:04:12,402 --> 00:04:29,937
NR: Coal was a deal that was done between Amar Singh and the government, post a nuclear deal which said - this is my laundry list - I want spectrum - He got spectrum. 'I want coal' - because Anil has got coal for UMPP  - you see when you do an Ultra Mega Power Project, you get coal automatically allocated to you.
VS: Okay.

21
00:04:29,937 --> 00:04:47,322
NR: If that mine has excess coal, it has to- you have to do something with it in terms of giving it back to the government or whatever.
VS: Okay.
NR: He- after the bidding process was over- after he was given the project, ...he went back to the EGoM and said, 'Allow me to divert this coal to my other projects.'
VS: Right

22
00:04:47,322 --> 00:05:04,174
NR: TATA Power's contention is- "Had you decided that that was going to be your policy, ...at the time of the bid, maybe I would have bid lower.-
VS: Right
NR: -'Cause I could have used other porjects to subsidise the rate."
VS: Ya.
NR: Valid argument, High court did not hold the decision hike(?). So we're back at Supreme court.

23
00:05:04,174 --> 00:05:22,659
NR: About a year and a half ago, we'd applied for distribution in Bombay. High court didn't allow us to distribute power in Bombay. Even though we are a power generating company. 
VS: Okay
NR: We are allowed in south Bombay, but we are not allowed in north Bombay.
VS: Right
NR: Finally we had to again go to Supreme court to get that order.
VS: Hmm

24
00:05:22,659 --> 00:05:34,359
NR: So what does this tell you, Vir?- Tribunals, High courts, ministers, regional parties, state governments -cannot decide on how you deal with natural resources.
VS: Right -

25
00:05:34,359 --> 00:05:50,356
VS: - its stated on the basis of corruption, no?
NR: Yes! Therefore it has to come from no less than the government. It has to be the prime minister, nobody else. Not even the prime minister- he has to form a core, clean bunch of people. You cannot have regional parties and that's for sure to start with.

26
00:05:50,356 --> 00:05:56,290
VS: Hmm. An important policy change is required, na?
NR: A very important policy change.

27
00:05:56,290 --> 00:06:18,972
NR: How can a High court judge decide whether a family MoU-
VS: Hmm...
NR: -holds good at the risk of public interest. ...This gas doesn't belong to Mukesh Ambani!
VS: Ya.
NR: He's only an operator.
VS: Ya.
NR: It belongs to the people of India. Let the government decide on what the price should be.
VS: Agreed. Absolutely right.

28
00:06:18,972 --> 00:06:31,707
NR: But the High court decides that its 2.34
VS: That makes no sense, no?
NR: Can you imagine!? He's written in his judgement- 'let no one think that there'll be no remedial measures in this country available'.

29
00:06:32,940 --> 00:06:44,382
VS: Remedial for what?
NR: Remedial meaning its a subjective statement saying- Anil Ambani had-
VS: Remedial for whom?
NR: Remedial for him. Ya! Obviously for Anil Ambani. That's subjective. You cannot have a High court judge doing that.
VS: Ya.

30
00:06:45,823 --> 00:07:04,895
VS: You guys are going to Supreme court?
NR: Ya. We'll have to go to Supreme court. No choice.
VS: It'll probably be overturned, no?
NR: Yeah but, Vir, the thing is that whilst ET and all of them are taking a position, I don't know how to handle Sanjoy Narayan.
VS: He's on leave, he's not here.
NR: No at Mint.

31
00:07:04,895 --> 00:07:22,940
NR: Because, you see, my view - I think the argument that I've put forward is very compelling, that this is natural.
VS: Hmm.
NR: I'm not saying even Mukesh Ambani. You can't even decide for Mukesh Ambani.
VS: No.
NR: You can't decide even for TATAs, what it should be.
NR: This is something that cannot be allowed in the hands of corrupt politicians or judiciary.

32
00:07:22,940 --> 00:07:43,546
VS: What is the angle BS are taking?
NR: BS I'm sure will attack Raja and all that. They've already been doing that.
VS: Okay
NR: And they'll say that there has to be a particular policy. But maybe they will even say Mukesh Ambani shouldn't have ...taken the... gas and negotiated with his brother for a resource which is of the government- er...the country. 
VS: Right

33
00:07:43,546 --> 00:07:55,815
NR: Sure point. No problem. But I think they will probably look at the market price. They'll say market price should be determined, and so on. Whatever that market price is. We have no problem with that.
VS: Okay

34
00:07:55,815 --> 00:08:09,811
NR: ET has consistently maintained that an ordinance should be issued and pricing should be done. And why are we in court and wasting all this public money?
VS: Right
NR: -for litigation, which is for the benefit of two brothers.
VS: Which is fair also, na?
NR: Yeah, which is also fine.

35
00:08:09,811 --> 00:08:26,017
NR: HT and Mint have been- 2.34, if it was promised, it should have been given. How can you break contractual agreements- all that and the other.
VS: HT also? Where in HT?
NR: Don't know.
NR: Don't know. <i>Pehle jab</i> (At first when) court case was on, <i>na</i>, they were taking a particular position.

36
00:08:26,017 --> 00:08:46,940
VS: But HT doesn't do editorials or whatever, it can only do reports. It takes this position in the reports also?
NR: Hmm?
VS: It takes this position even in the reporting?
NR: Reporting is like, you know, 'Anil v/s Mukesh'.... That way atleast ET has stuck to companies, you know?
VS: Hmm.
NR: And that's something they're conscious of because everytime they've put Mukesh's photo there, I get really mad at them.
(laughing)

37
00:08:46,940 --> 00:09:09,354
VS: What about Sukumar- what is his name?
NR: Sukumar I think will take ADAG's stand. He's on their payrolls also.
VS: Are you sure about this? That he is on their payroll?
NR: Look, Vir, everytime I've gone to them, everytime, he really, strongly defends it. He defends them. Maybe he has some other personal interest. I don't know.

38
00:09:09,354 --> 00:09:14,409
VS: What other interest could there be?
NR: Er maybe something has -
(both speak, inaudible)

39
00:09:18,527 --> 00:09:45,400
NR: I don't know Vir. You see, my- I have a decent concern..... My concern is that there is a - I mean - even if its Mukesh Ambani, or even if its TATAs, I know what we fought in Jharkhand. I mean I've been to Jharkhand. I've been to Ranchi, and I met Madhu Koda.
VS: Hmm.
NR: He won't agree anything in less than 150 crores. We had to go to court. 'You pay me 150 crores, you tell Ratan Tata to pay me through his contractors.'
NR: I told him- I'm sorry.
VS: Ya.

40
00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:56,103
NR: ...Yeddyurappa, Karnataka. Same thing.... How do you think those guys are making so much money- The Reddy brothers there?
VS: Yeah they can use this?
NR: Yeah.

41
00:09:56,103 --> 00:10:00,525
VS: (?) for the town.
NR: Yeah, that's right.... This all needs to be taken away from the...
(.tape ends abruptly)