1 00:00:05,167 --> 00:00:19,108 phone rings 2 00:00:19,108 --> 00:00:22,479 Niira Radia: Hi Prabhu Prabhu Chawla: Yaa tell me now 3 00:00:22,479 --> 00:00:26,290 Niira Radia: Nahin nothing, I was just wanting to try and understand from you. You always have a very good perspective. 4 00:00:26,290 --> 00:00:28,961 Prabhu Chawla: (laughs) On what? 5 00:00:28,961 --> 00:00:33,093 Niira Radia: On everything bhai, ha ha ha ha. 6 00:00:33,093 --> 00:00:38,585 Niira Radia: Generally you have a good perspective of everything. Trying to understand what is your view on this great historic judgment. 7 00:00:38,585 --> 00:00:40,303 Prabhu Chawla: Which one? The Bombay(?) one? 8 00:00:40,303 --> 00:00:45,616 Niira Radia: Bombay one which takes the family pact above the national interest. 9 00:00:45,616 --> 00:00:47,843 (laughs) 10 00:00:47,843 --> 00:00:53,185 Prabhu Chawla: You see when the brothers are involved, the nation also gets involved, na? 11 00:00:53,185 --> 00:00:56,762 Niira Radia: Yaa, but probably not a good thing naa. Not good for the nation. 12 00:00:56,762 --> 00:01:00,935 Prabhu Chawla: Not good for the nation, but the brothers don't talk to each other. 13 00:01:00,935 --> 00:01:03,755 Prabhu Chawla: There is nobody who can force them to talk also na? 14 00:01:03,755 --> 00:01:06,327 Niira Radia: Wo to hoga hi nahin naa Prabhu tum bhii jaante ho (That won't happen, even you know that.) 15 00:01:06,327 --> 00:01:09,817 Prabhu Chawla: Nahin,...maine koshish kii thi., nahin huaa. Maine kahaa ho jayegaa (No...I'd tried..it didn't happen. I said it will happen.) 16 00:01:09,817 --> 00:01:14,431 Niira Radia: Nahin. Abhi nahin. I was speaking to him even recently, I spoke to him this morning, the question of .. 17 00:01:14,431 --> 00:01:16,982 Prabhu Chawla: (interrupts) is he back from wherever he had gone, Mukesh? 18 00:01:16,982 --> 00:01:20,258 Niira Radia: He is very much here, he has been here the whole week. He has not gone anywhere! 19 00:01:20,258 --> 00:01:24,955 Prabhu Chawla: He was abroad last week I think. Niira Radia: No no no. He's here. 20 00:01:24,955 --> 00:01:30,264 Prabhu Chawla: Anyway, somebody told me that he is abroad. Niira Radia: No no.... He has been here for the whole week. He's not been anywhere. 21 00:01:30,264 --> 00:01:32,717 Niira Radia: He is not due to travel till next week. 22 00:01:32,717 --> 00:01:37,959 Prabhu Chawla: Because maine toh.....(Because I...) Sometimes he responds. Abhi (Now) I have stopped calling, and talking to him, ... 23 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,842 Niira Radia: No. He's been here the whole week. I just spoke to him this morning also. 24 00:01:41,842 --> 00:01:47,763 Niira Radia: He is very much here. He is not supposed to go anywhere till next week. 25 00:01:47,763 --> 00:01:52,973 Prabhu Chawla: Nahii. maine to usko... somebody… I didn't… Usko maine 15-20 din pahle message bhejaa thaa. (I'd sent him a message 15-20 days ago.) 26 00:01:52,973 --> 00:01:58,905 Prabhu Chawla: Then he responded. Then I asked again. Then he never responded. Maine usko message nahin bhejaa phir. (After that I did not message him again) 27 00:01:58,905 --> 00:02:02,923 Prabhu Chawla: Because the whole judgement was coming, I wanted to forewarn him. 28 00:02:02,923 --> 00:02:04,769 Niira Radia: Kyaa judgment uske khilaaf aa rahaa hai? (Is that judgement against him?) 29 00:02:04,769 --> 00:02:11,620 Prabhu Chawla: Haan (Yes), Arrogant hai naa. Uske baad kyaa kare? Yeh arrogance, dono bhaaiyyon kaa samajh mein nahin aati mero ko (Yes, He's arrogant. What more can we do. I don't understand both the brothers' arrogance.) 30 00:02:11,620 --> 00:02:14,845 Niira Radia: But Prabhu tell me one thing. Judgment is fixed, right? 31 00:02:14,845 --> 00:02:22,919 Prabhu Chawla: Dekho (See,) in this country, dono side mein fix karne ki capacity hain. Par baraa bhai jo hain naa.. Chhotaa bhaai mobile jyaada hai. (Both sides have the capacity to fix, in this country. But, the elder brother, ...the younger brother is more 'mobile'...) 32 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,712 Prabhu Chawla: Paise kam kharach kartaa hai, kanjoos hai sabse jyaadaa.... (He spends less, is more of a miser...) 33 00:02:26,712 --> 00:02:36,981 Prabhu Chawla: But he is more mobile than the elder brother. Elder brother doesn't want to go beyond what Dhirubhai left behind with him. Men or people, whatever. 34 00:02:36,981 --> 00:02:40,593 Prabhu Chawla: I think… You are getting what I am telling? Niira Radia: I understand. 35 00:02:40,593 --> 00:02:46,194 Prabhu Chawla: He is totally dependant on the people who Dhirubhai created. They were relevant at that point of time. 36 00:02:46,194 --> 00:02:53,859 Prabhu Chawla: Now they are not relevant. Anil Ambani has done… has developed new sources, new contacts, new way of thinking. 37 00:02:53,859 --> 00:03:03,272 Prabhu Chawla: That can be a possibility ki Mukesh ko apnaa… ek uskii wife bhi thoda dictate jyaadaa karti hogi. (Mukesh's wife possibly dictates more.) Anil ki wife nahii kartii hai (Anil's wide doesn't do that.) 38 00:03:03,272 --> 00:03:09,659 Prabhu Chawla: The way things are moving, Mukesh poor fellow is not able to get the right feedback.... 39 00:03:09,659 --> 00:03:17,833 Prabhu Chawla: ...because of insulation from various other sources. And I know what he is doing on the Supreme Court front. 40 00:03:17,833 --> 00:03:21,843 Prabhu Chawla: Various things. Which is not the way to go about. Niira Radia: Hmm. 41 00:03:21,843 --> 00:03:28,739 Prabhu Chawla: What he doing it is known to the rest of the world. Which is not good. 42 00:03:28,739 --> 00:03:34,053 Prabhu Chawla: Usko thoda… If he has to…. because everything is fixed now these days. 43 00:03:34,053 --> 00:03:40,668 Prabhu Chawla: Ab (Now) Supreme Court mein (in) reverse ho gayaa (happens), then he is finished for ever, yaar! (my friend!) 44 00:03:40,668 --> 00:03:46,921 Prabhu Chawla: If he doesn't get a favourable judgement from Supreme Court, then he is finished, naa? 45 00:03:46,921 --> 00:03:52,757 Niira Radia: But Prabhu ek baat batao (Tell me something)? Prabhu Chawla: Haan (sure) ? Niira Radia: Abhi tak (Until now) Supreme Court kaa, between you and me, toh finalise huaa bhi nahin? (It's not been finalised yet?) 46 00:03:52,757 --> 00:04:01,762 Prabhu Chawla: Finalise kaa matlab kya hai? (Means what?) Bhai Murli Deora bhii jaayega court mein. (will also go to court) 47 00:04:01,762 --> 00:04:07,888 Prabhu Chawla: Prime Minister is also putting pressure on Murli Deora to settle it. Because ultimately it is national loss na, as you put it. 48 00:04:07,888 --> 00:04:13,340 Prabhu Chawla: Itnaa mehanga ho raha hain fuel, ab 90 dollars ho jayegaa 2-3 mahiine mein. (Fuel is getting so expensive! In 2-3 months it will change to 90$) 49 00:04:13,340 --> 00:04:18,358 Prabhu Chawla: if you are not able to take out gas from your own sources, then there is a problem, naa. Country should not bloody suffer because of these two brothers! 50 00:04:18,358 --> 00:04:23,767 Niira Radia: That's right. Which is what Mukesh has also told Anil very clearly. What is the issue? 51 00:04:23,767 --> 00:04:30,882 Niira Radia: Anil …usne kabhi apne gas ke liye manaa toh nahin kiya. Usne kaha tera 28 mmscmd bantaa hai. Agar NTPC 12 nahii letaa toh teraa woh bhii bantaa hai. (He's never said he won't give the gas. He said you straight away get 28 mmscd. If NTPC doesn't increase, you get that too.) 52 00:04:30,882 --> 00:04:38,300 Niira Radia: Lekin jo 2.34 ki price hai, woh government ki domain hai. Main uspe decide nahin karta sakta, I'm an operator. (But the 2.34 price is the government's price. I can't decide on that.) 53 00:04:38,300 --> 00:04:43,149 Niira Radia: Uska point limited woh hai. (His point is limited to that.) I don't know, aapne MoU dekha? (Did you see the MoU?) 54 00:04:43,149 --> 00:04:49,409 Niira Radia: I don't know whether you have seen it, but I will show it to you. MoU mein aisa kuch likhaa nahin hai. (Nothing like that is written in the MoU.) 55 00:04:49,409 --> 00:04:58,682 Prabhu Chawla: Nahin. MoU mein pataa nahin, maine dekhaa nahiin isi liye I can't say, frankly speaking, and MoU mein, agar court ne order kiya, toh kisii basis pe kiyaa hogaa naa. Padhaa hogaa court ne. (No, I've not read the MoU, so I can't say. But if the court has passed an order then there must be some basis for it. The court must've read it.) 56 00:04:58,682 --> 00:05:18,639 Niira Radia: Nahin... Uska court kaa order mein, 328 pages mein I can give you anything, I can tell you, woh pen drive bhi jo use ki hogi naa, Prabhu, woh jo telecom kaa TDSAT kaa judgement huaa naa, dual technology kaa Vanavati ne jo karvaya hai, Dr Sarma.. Aur baad mein Raja ne phir Dr Sarma ko TRAI chairman banaa diya. (No, the pen drive that was used in the telecom TDSAT judgment on dual technology, that Vanavati did...later Raja made Dr. Sarma TRAI chairman...) 57 00:05:18,639 --> 00:05:22,995 Niira Radia: Woh guaranteed ki same pen drive use ki hogi. (I guarantee that the same pen drive must have been used...for the 328 pages of the court order.) Prabhu Chawla: hahaha (laughs) 58 00:05:22,995 --> 00:05:30,617 Niira Radia: Mein tumko dono judgement aamne saamne dikhake, tum dekh lo, dono pad lo. Usme jo… dono wordings mein… (I'll show you both the judgements side-by-side, you see both, you read. The wordings in both....) 59 00:05:30,617 --> 00:05:38,431 Prabhu Chawla: Gulam Vanavati is an old friend of mine. He was in Indian Express when I was editor of Indian Express, he was our counsel. 60 00:05:38,431 --> 00:05:46,062 Prabhu Chawla: Meraa bahut achhaa dost hai puraanaa. Nusli Wadia ke saath thaa pahle. (He's a very good friend of mine from before. He was with Nusli Wadia before...) He is a very good friend of Nusli, even now I think he friends... 61 00:05:46,062 --> 00:05:50,284 Prabhu Chawla: He is with Sharad Pawar also. But he is very close to Anil Ambani. Everybody knows about it. 62 00:05:50,284 --> 00:05:59,015 Prabhu Chawla: Appointment.. Anil Ambani, Nusli Wadia and,... apna hai na power minister, Shinde,... 63 00:05:59,015 --> 00:06:04,635 Prabhu Chawla: ...they all went for him naa for the appointment of [inaudible]. Bharadwaj never liked him. 64 00:06:04,635 --> 00:06:10,890 Prabhu Chawla: Bharadwaj would not have made him the Attorney General agar (if) Bharadwaj law minister hotaa (was). Ab ban gaya wo. (Now, he is.) 65 00:06:10,890 --> 00:06:18,084 Prabhu Chawla: The question is these brothers have to come to the conclusion themselves first.... 66 00:06:18,084 --> 00:06:26,346 Prabhu Chawla: Kyun ki agreement toh hogaa court mein jaa karke Supreme Court ne order dono ko acceptable de diya, that can be one way of looking at it. (because.... one way of looking at it... is that both may get an acceptable order on going to the Supreme Court) 67 00:06:26,346 --> 00:06:37,771 Prabhu Chawla: Kyun ki abhi toh (Because now,) here basically the whole judgement will decide the future of both of them naa? More of Mukesh than of Anil. 68 00:06:37,771 --> 00:06:43,217 Prabhu Chawla: Ki Anil kaa to saala power plant hi shuru nahin hua, usko gas kyaa karna hai? (Anil's power plant has not even started yet. What will he do with the gas?) 69 00:06:43,217 --> 00:06:49,015 Niira Radia: Judgement mein usne 17 saal to likhaa nahin hai. Mujhe lagtaa hai gas toh de deni chahiye kal se. Usko bolo chal tu le. Kya karegaa uske saath? Kuch nahiin kar saktaa. (In the judgement he hasn't said 17 years. I feel he should be given the gas. Tell him to take it. What will he do with it? He can't do anything.) 70 00:06:49,015 --> 00:06:53,935 Prabhu Chawla: Bech le nahin sakta. Theek hai, bolo uthaa lo gas jaa kar ke... (He can't sell it. Okay, tell him to take it.) Niira Radia: Aur paise do uske liye. (And pay money for it.) 71 00:06:53,935 --> 00:06:56,985 Prabhu Chawla: Haan paise do, bech nahin saktaa woh kisi aur ko. Likha hai Judgement mein you can't sell it to anybody else naa? (Yes, pay for it. He can't sell it to anybody else. It says so in the judgment, doesn't it?) Niira Radia: Correct, correct. 72 00:06:56,985 --> 00:07:08,366 Prabhu Chawla:  Theek hai, bhai. That, that… let Mukesh sell it wherever he wants to sell it. That should be the… 73 00:07:08,366 --> 00:07:16,036 Prabhu Chawla: ...Mukesh kaa objective kyaa hai,( ...I don't know what Mukesh's objective is.) I don't know. You are not clear. Because unke yahan jo Anand Jain toh baahar ho gayaa mere khayaal se. He is out, naa? 74 00:07:16,036 --> 00:07:24,683 Niira Radia: Nahin nahin, (No, no) he is very much there. Again ye Anil ki phailee hui baatein hain. Yeh galat baat hai. Main usko itnii baar khud dekh chukkii huun. (These are rumours spread by Anil. It's wrong. I've seen him, myself, so many times.) 75 00:07:24,683 --> 00:07:27,957 Prabhu Chawla: I don't know, because people on both sides are haraami, na advisors. 76 00:07:27,957 --> 00:07:35,382 Niira Radia: Nahiin, ek baat, sach baat, bataa duun tum ko. (No, let me tell you something...) Anand Jain is very much there. Manoj Modi is very much there. Mukesh is very much there. 77 00:07:35,382 --> 00:07:40,536 Prabhu Chawla: Manoj Modi is little more professional Niira Radia: He is very professional 78 00:07:40,536 --> 00:07:48,794 Prabhu Chawla: Manoj Modi very much professional. Anand Jain thoda politics kartaa hai ki uskaa apnaa dhandaa bhi hai, business hai. (Anand Jain plays some political games...he has his business too.) He has more influence on… 79 00:07:48,794 --> 00:07:53,489 Niira Radia: Haan ... but is matter mein Manoj Modi jyaadaa hogaa na nazdeek? (Yes, but in this matter Manoj Modi must be closer, isn't it?) 80 00:07:53,489 --> 00:08:02,951 Prabhu Chawla: Haan (yes), Manoj Modi jo bhi hai, but now Supreme Court mein aana hi hai case. Anil Ambani ne caveat file kardii. Kal parso ki. (Yes whoever. But now the case has to go to the Supreme court, Anil A. has filed the caveat.) 81 00:08:02,951 --> 00:08:06,221 Niira Radia: Woh toh karegaa naa. (That he would do,...) He has to safeguard his interests. 82 00:08:06,221 --> 00:08:17,876 Prabhu Chawla: But since you have access to Mukesh, you should should convey to Mukesh that the way he is going about the Supreme Court is not… I won't give you anything more than that. It is not the right way. 83 00:08:17,876 --> 00:08:22,170 Niira Radia: Nahin, "not the right way" matlab? You're saying- He is going to Supreme Court, he shouldn't go to Supreme Court? 84 00:08:22,170 --> 00:08:28,990 Prabhu Chawla: No, no, no. The way he is going to the Supreme Court. I won't tell you more than that. 85 00:08:28,990 --> 00:08:41,385 Prabhu Chawla: The people he is using, they are not the people who can be trusted for keeping it to themselves. Niira Radia: Hmm.. 86 00:08:41,385 --> 00:08:54,500 Prabhu Chawla: Bol dete hain, ab London mein baith ke kuch bhi bolte hain. Achha nahin lagtaa naa,(Sitting in London, they say anything. It's not good...) it gets back. London is like… London is not London. It is a phone call away. Niira Radia: Hmmm.. 87 00:08:54,500 --> 00:09:02,777 Prabhu Chawla: Usko thoda… He must be… Political system hi Delhi mein change ho gayaa. 88 00:09:02,777 --> 00:09:09,527 Prabhu Chawla: Mukesh. Mukesh ne bhi.. People may be projecting whatever he is close to Sonia, he is close to Rahul, he is close to this. 89 00:09:09,527 --> 00:09:15,003 Prabhu Chawla: But may be Mukesh got access, but he can't influence anything. Collective jyadaa ho gaya naa. (It's more of a collective.) 90 00:09:15,003 --> 00:09:23,868 Prabhu Chawla: Kamalnath can decide one thing but he can be overruled by Pranab Mukherjee. So ye saare loose ends ko tight karnaa hai naa? (All these loose ends must be tied-up together, no?) 91 00:09:23,868 --> 00:09:27,646 Niira Radia: Maine tumharaa London kaa point catch nahin kiyaa... (I didn't understand your point about London.) 92 00:09:27,646 --> 00:09:36,099 Prabhu Chawla: Matlab (As in), he is trying to understand how to go into the Supreme Court. Niira Radia: I don't think so Prabhu, tumko yeh kisne bataya? (Who said this to you?) 93 00:09:36,099 --> 00:09:42,632 Prabhu Chawla: Chhodo na ab. Niira Radia: Nahin seriously, Prabhu main tumse kyun chhupaun baat? Sach-much. I mean. Come on. (No, seriously, why would I hide anything from you?) 94 00:09:42,632 --> 00:09:48,668 Prabhu Chawla: He has to go to appeal in Supreme Court or not finally? Niira Radia: Agreed. He is appealing to Supreme Court. He will have to appeal in the Supreme Court, the question doesn't arise. 95 00:09:48,668 --> 00:09:52,289 Prabhu Chawla: If he is appealing to Supreme Court, he must be trying to find out the right people. 96 00:09:52,289 --> 00:09:58,687 Prabhu Chawla: Harish Salve toh uskaa advocate hai hii. He will appear for him. Because he is an outstanding advocate. 97 00:09:58,687 --> 00:10:06,918 Prabhu Chawla: But he must be thinking if there's any way of, like, Anil can use various ways, he can also use various ways or not. 98 00:10:06,918 --> 00:10:15,476 And you know what? Brothers are not… Clean toh dono mein se… apne apne tareeka dono lagayenge naa? (They both will try their own ways, no?) 99 00:10:15,476 --> 00:10:21,969 Niira Radia: Haan. Anil Ambani apnaa lagaa hogaa, apne logo ke through, DMK ke through, apne Chief Justice ke paas yeh sab. (Anil must have tried, through his people, through DMK, with the Chief Justice, and all.) 100 00:10:21,969 --> 00:10:26,909 Prabhu Chawla: Nahin, DMK toh Chief Justice Kerala kaa hai na. (No, DMK... Chief Justice is from Kerala, no?) Niira Radia: Haan. Kerala kaa hai. (Yes, he is from Kerala.) 101 00:10:26,909 --> 00:10:38,876 Prabhu Chawla: He is not… Yeh bhi lage honge naa kisii ke through? Mukesh bhii toh kar rahaa hogaa naa? Phir? Wohi keh rahaa huun. Mukeh jis tariike se approach kar rahaa hai, if that's what I heard, is not the right way to go. (They must be trying on this end too,...Mukesh must be at it too. That's what I'm saying. The method of approach Mukesh is using is not the right way.) 102 00:10:38,876 --> 00:10:43,711 Niira Radia: Theek hai. I understood what you are saying. Prabhu Chawla: Now you understand na? 103 00:10:43,711 --> 00:10:48,920 Niira Radia: I will… Main baat karungi thodi der mein, (I will speak to you in some time,) I will tell him to speak to you. 104 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:56,457 Prabhu Chawla: Yeah, Because, I sent him messages, 10 bar messages bhejaa, he doesn't reply. I don't want to call him. 105 00:10:56,457 --> 00:11:03,270 Prabhu Chawla: Because my family is a retainer for Anil. I don't want to discuss with him at all. 106 00:11:03,270 --> 00:11:08,320 Prabhu Chawla: Lekin sun toh letaa hun naa kaii baar,... idhar udhar se, political logon se. (But one does hear bits here and there...from 'political' people.) 107 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:14,816 Prabhu Chawla: But he is not appearing for him. My son is not involved in this case at all. Niira Radia: Your son, naa? 108 00:11:14,816 --> 00:11:18,514 Prabhu Chawla: Haan, he is not involved at all. Niira Radia: Why? 109 00:11:18,514 --> 00:11:26,224 Prabhu Chawla: 'Cause he doesn't trust my son also, in this case. (laughs) Anil doesn't trust my son. Niira Radia: Your son is with whom now? 110 00:11:26,224 --> 00:11:31,482 Prabhu Chawla: He is a retainer for Anil naa. He is independent. He is running his own independent company. 111 00:11:31,482 --> 00:11:37,262 Prabhu Chawla: He is not with Rian any more. Niira Radia: Haan... (Yes...) Prabhu Chawla: He is running his own solicitor firm. Niira Radia: Haan haan... (Yes,...) 112 00:11:37,262 --> 00:11:45,713 Prabhu Chawla: He was retained by various people...10-12 log hain isme Anil's mobile is one company which retains him. Niira Radia: Haan... 113 00:11:45,713 --> 00:11:55,735 Prabhu Chawla: But in this case he is not involved. But idhar udhar se pick up toh karte hain na cheezein sab. Niira Radia: Right, right. 114 00:11:55,735 --> 00:11:59,662 Prabhu Chawla: My information is through the legal sources. Niira Radia: Yes... 115 00:11:59,662 --> 00:12:08,850 Prabhu Chawla: Once you tell him that Prabhu was saying something about you talking to people in London, he will understand. Niira Radia: Chalo (Okay) I will tell him. 116 00:12:08,850 --> 00:12:19,579 Prabhu Chawla: Chhota Bhai bada haraami hai. (The younger brother is a real bastard) Niira Radia: Harami to hai lekin har waqt haraamii panaa last nahiin kartaa naa, (He is,..but that behaviour does stop somewhere) Prabhu you also know. 117 00:12:19,579 --> 00:12:29,932 Prabhu Chawla: Question is, abhii (now), when you are working in a system which is not clean, you have to be… bhaii tumhaare ko nuksaan to ho gaya naa? 118 00:12:29,932 --> 00:12:38,323 Prabhu Chawla: Udhar recovery karte raho apne aap. (You have already suffered a setback. And then keep trying recover yourself.) It is better to do it in a manner so that you are not the loser. 119 00:12:42,867 --> 00:12:48,757 Niira Radia: Theek hai (Alright...) Prabhu Chawla: Main kal jaa rahaa hun Bombay. Ek baar usne kahaa thaa dinner pe aana ghar pe. That is about… He called me one day. 120 00:12:48,757 --> 00:12:55,452 Prabhu Chawla: You remember [inaudible].... I was the only senior editor there. 121 00:12:55,452 --> 00:13:02,363 Prabhu Chawla: But then after that I tried to meet him, but nahin mil paayaa. (...but I didn't manage to meet him.) 122 00:13:02,363 --> 00:13:06,200 Prabhu Chawla: I went a couple of times to Bombay recently but he was not there. I have been trying to reach him par uske baad baat hii nahii huii. (...but after that I never got to speak to him.) [abrupt end]