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phone rings

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Niira Radia: Hi Prabhu
Prabhu Chawla: Yaa tell me now

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Niira Radia: <i>Nahin</i> nothing, I was just wanting to try and understand from you. You always have a very good perspective.

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Prabhu Chawla: (laughs) On what?

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Niira Radia: On everything <i>bhai</i>, ha ha ha ha.

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Niira Radia: Generally you have a good perspective of everything. Trying to understand what is your view on this great historic judgment.

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Prabhu Chawla: Which one? The Bombay(?) one?

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Niira Radia: Bombay one which takes the family pact above the national interest.

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(laughs)

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Prabhu Chawla: You see when the brothers are involved, the nation also gets involved, <i>na</i>?

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Niira Radia: Yaa, but probably not a good thing naa. Not good for the nation.

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Prabhu Chawla: Not good for the nation, but the brothers don't talk to each other.

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Prabhu Chawla: There is nobody who can force them to talk also <i>na</i>?

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Niira Radia: <i>Wo to hoga hi nahin naa</i> Prabhu <i>tum bhii jaante ho</i> (That won't happen, even you know that.)

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Nahin,...maine koshish kii thi., nahin huaa. Maine kahaa ho jayegaa</i> (No...I'd tried..it didn't happen. I said it will happen.)

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Niira Radia: <i>Nahin. Abhi nahin</i>. I was speaking to him even recently, I spoke to him this morning, the question of ..

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Prabhu Chawla: (interrupts) is he back from wherever he had gone, Mukesh?

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Niira Radia: He is very much here, he has been here the whole week. He has not gone anywhere!

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Prabhu Chawla: He was abroad last week I think.
Niira Radia: No no no. He's here.

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Prabhu Chawla: Anyway, somebody told me that he is abroad.
Niira Radia: No no.... He has been here for the whole week. He's not been anywhere.

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Niira Radia: He is not due to travel till next week.

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Prabhu Chawla: Because <i>maine toh</i>.....(Because I...) Sometimes he responds. <i>Abhi</i> (Now) I have stopped calling, and talking to him, ...

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Niira Radia: No. He's been here the whole week. I just spoke to him this morning also.

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Niira Radia: He is very much here. He is not supposed to go anywhere till next week.

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Nahii. maine to usko</i>... somebody… I didn't… <i>Usko maine</i> 15-20 <i>din pahle message bhejaa thaa</i>. (I'd sent him a message 15-20 days ago.)

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Prabhu Chawla: Then he responded. Then I asked again. Then he never responded. <i>Maine usko message nahin bhejaa phir.</i> (After that I did not message him again)

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Prabhu Chawla: Because the whole judgement was coming, I wanted to forewarn him.

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Niira Radia: <i>Kyaa</i> judgment </i>uske khilaaf aa rahaa hai</i>? (Is that judgement against him?)

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Haan</i> (Yes), Arrogant <i>hai naa. Uske baad kyaa kare? Yeh arrogance, dono bhaaiyyon kaa samajh mein nahin aati mero ko</i> (Yes, He's arrogant. What more can we do. I don't understand both the brothers' arrogance.)

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Niira Radia: But Prabhu tell me one thing. Judgment is fixed, right?

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Dekho</i> (See,) in this country, <i>dono side mein fix karne ki capacity hain. Par baraa bhai jo hain naa.. Chhotaa bhaai mobile jyaada hai</i>. (Both sides have the capacity to fix, in this country. But, the elder brother, ...the younger brother is more 'mobile'...)

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Paise kam kharach kartaa hai, kanjoos hai sabse jyaadaa....</i> (He spends less, is more of a miser...)

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Prabhu Chawla: But he is more mobile than the elder brother. Elder brother doesn't want to go beyond what Dhirubhai left behind with him. Men or people, whatever.

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Prabhu Chawla: I think… You are getting what I am telling?
Niira Radia: I understand.

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Prabhu Chawla: He is totally dependant on the people who Dhirubhai created. They were relevant at that point of time.

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Prabhu Chawla: Now they are not relevant. Anil Ambani has done… has developed new sources, new contacts, new way of thinking.

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Prabhu Chawla: That can be a possibility <i>ki Mukesh ko apnaa… ek uskii wife bhi thoda dictate jyaadaa karti hogi.</i> (Mukesh's wife possibly dictates more.) Anil <i>ki wife nahii kartii hai</i> (Anil's wide doesn't do that.)

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Prabhu Chawla: The way things are moving, Mukesh poor fellow is not able to get the right feedback....

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Prabhu Chawla: ...because of insulation from various other sources. And I know what he is doing on the Supreme Court front.

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Prabhu Chawla: Various things. Which is not the way to go about.
Niira Radia: Hmm.

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Prabhu Chawla: What he doing it is known to the rest of the world. Which is not good.

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Usko thoda</i>… If he has to…. because everything is fixed now these days.

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Ab</i> (Now) Supreme Court <i>mein</i> (in) reverse <i>ho gayaa</i> (happens), then he is finished for ever, <i>yaar</i>! (my friend!)

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Prabhu Chawla: If he doesn't get a favourable judgement from Supreme Court, then he is finished, naa?

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Niira Radia: But Prabhu <i>ek baat batao</i> (Tell me something)?
Prabhu Chawla: <i>Haan</i> (sure) ?
Niira Radia: <i>Abhi tak</i> (Until now) Supreme Court <i>kaa</i>, between you and me, <i>toh finalise huaa bhi nahin</i>? (It's not been finalised yet?)

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Prabhu Chawla: Finalise <i>kaa matlab kya hai</i>? (Means what?) <i>Bhai</i> Murli Deora <i>bhii jaayega</i> court <i>mein</i>. (will also go to court)

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Prabhu Chawla: Prime Minister is also putting pressure on Murli Deora to settle it. Because ultimately it is national loss <i>na</i>, as you put it.

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Itnaa mehanga ho raha hain</i> fuel, <i>ab</i> 90 dollars <i>ho jayegaa 2-3 mahiine mein</i>. (Fuel is getting so expensive! In 2-3 months it will change to 90$)

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Prabhu Chawla: if you are not able to take out gas from your own sources, then there is a problem, naa. Country should not bloody suffer because of these two brothers!

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Niira Radia: That's right. Which is what Mukesh has also told Anil very clearly. What is the issue?

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Niira Radia: Anil …<i>usne kabhi apne gas ke liye manaa toh nahin kiya. Usne kaha tera 28 mmscmd bantaa hai. Agar NTPC 12 nahii letaa toh teraa woh bhii bantaa hai.</i> (He's never said he won't give the gas. He said you straight away get 28 mmscd. If NTPC doesn't increase, you get that too.)

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Niira Radia: <i>Lekin jo 2.34 ki price hai, woh government ki</i> domain <i>hai</i>. Main uspe</i> decide <i>nahin karta sakta</i>, I'm an operator. (But the 2.34 price is the government's price. I can't decide on that.)

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Niira Radia: <i>Uska</i> point limited <i>woh hai</i>. (His point is limited to that.) I don't know, <i>aapne</i> MoU <i>dekha</i>? (Did you see the MoU?)

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Niira Radia: I don't know whether you have seen it, but I will show it to you. MoU <i>mein aisa kuch likhaa nahin hai</i>. (Nothing like that is written in the MoU.)

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Nahin</i>. MoU <i>mein pataa nahin, maine dekhaa nahiin isi liye</i> I can't say, frankly speaking, and MoU <i>mein, agar</i> court <i>ne</i> order <i>kiya, toh kisii</i> basis <i>pe kiyaa hogaa naa. Padhaa hogaa</i> court <i>ne.</i>
(No, I've not read the MoU, so I can't say. But if the court has passed an order then there must be some basis for it. The court must've read it.)

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Niira Radia: <i>Nahin... Uska court kaa order mein</i>, 328 pages <i>mein</i> I can give you anything, I can tell you, <i>woh</i> pen drive <i>bhi jo</i> use <i>ki hogi naa</i>, Prabhu, <i>woh jo</i> telecom </i>kaa</i> TDSAT <i>kaa</i> judgement <i>huaa naa</i>, dual technology <i>kaa</i> Vanavati <i>ne jo karvaya hai</i>, Dr Sarma.. <i>Aur baad mein</i> Raja <i>ne phir</i> Dr Sarma </i>ko</i> TRAI chairman <i>banaa diya</i>. (No, the pen drive that was used in the telecom TDSAT judgment on dual technology, that Vanavati did...later Raja made Dr. Sarma TRAI chairman...)

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Niira Radia: <i>Woh</i> guaranteed <i>ki</i> same pen drive use <i>ki hogi</i>. (I guarantee that the same pen drive must have been used...for the 328 pages of the court order.)
Prabhu Chawla: hahaha (laughs)

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Niira Radia: <i>Mein tumko dono</i> judgement <i>aamne saamne dikhake, tum dekh lo, dono pad lo. Usme jo… dono</i> wordings <i>mein</i>… (I'll show you both the judgements side-by-side, you see both, you read. The wordings in both....)

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Prabhu Chawla: Gulam Vanavati is an old friend of mine. He was in Indian Express when I was editor of Indian Express, he was our counsel.

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Meraa bahut achhaa dost hai puraanaa.</i> Nusli Wadia <i>ke saath thaa pahle</i>. (He's a very good friend of mine from before. He was with Nusli Wadia before...) He is a very good friend of Nusli, even now I think he friends...

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Prabhu Chawla: He is with Sharad Pawar also. But he is very close to Anil Ambani. Everybody knows about it.

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Prabhu Chawla: Appointment.. Anil Ambani, Nusli Wadia and,... <i>apna hai na</i> power minister, Shinde,...

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Prabhu Chawla: ...they all went for him <i>naa</i> for the appointment of [inaudible]. Bharadwaj never liked him.

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Prabhu Chawla: Bharadwaj would not have made him the Attorney General <i>agar</i> (if) Bharadwaj law minister <i>hotaa</i> (was). <i>Ab ban gaya wo</i>. (Now, he is.)

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Prabhu Chawla: The question is these brothers have to come to the conclusion themselves first....

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Kyun ki</i> agreement <i>toh hogaa</i> court <i>mein jaa karke</i> Supreme Court <i>ne</i> order <i>dono ko</i> acceptable <i>de diya</i>, that can be one way of looking at it. 
(because.... one way of looking at it... is that both may get an acceptable order on going to the Supreme Court)

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Kyun ki abhi toh</i> (Because now,) here basically the whole judgement will decide the future of both of them <i>naa</i>? More of Mukesh than of Anil.

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Ki</i> Anil <i>kaa to saala</i> power plant <i>hi shuru nahin hua, usko</i> gas <i>kyaa karna hai</i>?
(Anil's power plant has not even started yet. What will he do with the gas?)

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Niira Radia: Judgement <i>mein usne 17 saal to likhaa nahin hai. Mujhe lagtaa hai</i> gas <i>toh de deni chahiye kal se. Usko bolo chal tu le. Kya karegaa uske saath? Kuch nahiin kar saktaa.</i>
(In the judgement he hasn't said 17 years. I feel he should be given the gas. Tell him to take it. What will he do with it? He can't do anything.)

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Bech le nahin sakta. Theek hai, bolo uthaa lo</i> gas <i>jaa kar ke...</i>
(He can't sell it. Okay, tell him to take it.)
Niira Radia: <i>Aur paise do uske liye</i>.
(And pay money for it.)

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Haan paise do, bech nahin saktaa woh kisi aur ko.</i> <i>Likha hai</i> Judgement <i>mein</i> you can't sell it to anybody else <i>naa</i>?
(Yes, pay for it. He can't sell it to anybody else. It says so in the judgment, doesn't it?)
Niira Radia: Correct, correct.

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Prabhu Chawla: <i> Theek hai, bhai.</i> That, that… let Mukesh sell it wherever he wants to sell it. That should be the…

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>...Mukesh kaa</i> objective <i>kyaa hai</i>,( ...I don't know what Mukesh's objective is.) I don't know. You are not clear. Because <i>unke yahan jo</i> Anand Jain </i>toh baahar ho gayaa mere khayaal se</i>. He is out, <i>naa</i>?

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Niira Radia: <i>Nahin nahin</i>, (No, no) he is very much there. Again <i>ye</i> Anil <i>ki phailee hui baatein hain. Yeh galat baat hai. Main usko itnii baar khud dekh chukkii huun.</i>
(These are rumours spread by Anil. It's wrong. I've seen him, myself, so many times.)

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Prabhu Chawla: I don't know, because people on both sides are <i>haraami</i>, na advisors.

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Niira Radia: <i>Nahiin, ek baat, sach baat, bataa duun tum ko</i>. (No, let me tell you something...) Anand Jain is very much there. Manoj Modi is very much there. Mukesh is very much there.

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Prabhu Chawla: Manoj Modi is little more professional
Niira Radia: He is very professional

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Prabhu Chawla: Manoj Modi very much professional. Anand Jain <i>thoda</i> politics <i>kartaa hai ki uskaa apnaa dhandaa bhi hai</i>, business <i>hai</i>. (Anand Jain plays some political games...he has his business too.) He has more influence on…

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Niira Radia: Haan ... but <i>is</i> matter <i>mein</i> Manoj Modi <i>jyaadaa hogaa na nazdeek</i>?
(Yes, but in this matter Manoj Modi must be closer, isn't it?)

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Haan</i> (yes), Manoj Modi <i>jo bhi hai</i>, but now Supreme Court <i>mein aana hi hai</i> case. Anil Ambani <i>ne</i> caveat file <i>kardii</i>. <i>Kal parso ki</i>.
(Yes whoever. But now the case has to go to the Supreme court, Anil A. has filed the caveat.)

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Niira Radia: <i>Woh toh karegaa naa</i>. (That he would do,...) He has to safeguard his interests.

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Prabhu Chawla: But since you have access to Mukesh, you should should convey to Mukesh that the way he is going about the Supreme Court is not… I won't give you anything more than that. It is not the right way.

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Niira Radia: Nahin, "not the right way" matlab? You're saying- He is going to Supreme Court, he shouldn't go to Supreme Court?

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Prabhu Chawla: No, no, no. The way he is going to the Supreme Court. I won't tell you more than that.

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Prabhu Chawla: The people he is using, they are not the people who can be trusted for keeping it to themselves.
Niira Radia: Hmm..

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Bol dete hain, ab</i> London <i>mein baith ke kuch bhi bolte hain. Achha nahin lagtaa naa</i>,(Sitting in London, they say anything. It's not good...) it gets back. London is like… London is not London. It is a phone call away.
Niira Radia: Hmmm..

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Usko thoda</i>… He must be… Political system <i>hi</i> Delhi <i>mein</i> change <i>ho gayaa</i>.

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Prabhu Chawla: Mukesh. Mukesh <i>ne bhi</i>.. People may be projecting whatever he is close to Sonia, he is close to Rahul, he is close to this.

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Prabhu Chawla: But may be Mukesh got access, but he can't influence anything. Collective <i>jyadaa ho gaya naa</i>. (It's more of a collective.)

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Prabhu Chawla: Kamalnath can decide one thing but he can be overruled by Pranab Mukherjee. So <i>ye saare</i> loose ends <i>ko</i> tight <i>karnaa hai naa</i>?
(All these loose ends must be tied-up together, no?)

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Niira Radia: <i>Maine tumharaa</i> London <i>kaa</i> point catch <i>nahin kiyaa</i>...
(I didn't understand your point about London.)

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Matlab</i> (As in), he is trying to understand how to go into the Supreme Court.
Niira Radia: I don't think so Prabhu, <i>tumko yeh kisne bataya</i>? (Who said this to you?)

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Chhodo na ab</i>.
Niira Radia: <i>Nahin</i> seriously, Prabhu <i>main tumse kyun chhupaun baat? Sach-much</i>. I mean. Come on.
(No, seriously, why would I hide anything from you?)

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Prabhu Chawla: He has to go to appeal in Supreme Court or not finally?
Niira Radia: Agreed. He is appealing to Supreme Court. He will have to appeal in the Supreme Court, the question doesn't arise.

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Prabhu Chawla: If he is appealing to Supreme Court, he must be trying to find out the right people.

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Prabhu Chawla: Harish Salve <i>toh uskaa</i> advocate <i>hai hii</i>. He will appear for him. Because he is an outstanding advocate.

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Prabhu Chawla: But he must be thinking if there's any way of, like, Anil can use various ways, he can also use various ways or not.

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And you know what? Brothers are not… Clean <i>toh dono mein se… apne apne tareeka dono lagayenge naa</i>?
(They both will try their own ways, no?)

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Niira Radia: <i>Haan</i>. Anil Ambani <i>apnaa lagaa hogaa, apne logo ke</i> through, DMK <i>ke</i> through, <i>apne</i> Chief Justice <i>ke paas yeh sab</i>.
(Anil must have tried, through his people, through DMK, with the Chief Justice, and all.)

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Nahin</i>, DMK <i>toh</i> Chief Justice Kerala <i>kaa hai na</i>.
(No, DMK... Chief Justice is from Kerala, no?)
Niira Radia: <i>Haan</i>. Kerala <i>kaa hai</i>.
(Yes, he is from Kerala.)

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Prabhu Chawla: He is not… <i>Yeh bhi lage honge naa kisii ke</i> through? Mukesh <i>bhii toh kar rahaa hogaa naa? Phir? Wohi keh rahaa huun.</i> Mukeh <i>jis tariike se</i> approach <i>kar rahaa hai</i>, if that's what I heard, is not the right way to go.
(They must be trying on this end too,...Mukesh must be at it too. That's what I'm saying. The method of approach Mukesh is using is not the right way.)

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Niira Radia: <i>Theek hai</i>. I understood what you are saying.
Prabhu Chawla: Now you understand <i>na</i>?

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Niira Radia: I will… <i>Main baat karungi thodi der mein</i>, (I will speak to you in some time,) I will tell him to speak to you.

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Prabhu Chawla: Yeah, Because, I sent him messages, <i>10 bar messages bhejaa</i>, he doesn't reply. I don't want to call him.

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Prabhu Chawla: Because my family is a retainer for Anil. I don't want to discuss with him at all.

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Prabhu Chawla: <i>Lekin sun toh letaa hun naa kaii baar,... idhar udhar se, political logon se</i>. (But one does hear bits here and there...from 'political' people.)

107
00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:14,816
Prabhu Chawla: But he is not appearing for him. My son is not involved in this case at all.
Niira Radia: Your son, <i>naa</i>?

108
00:11:14,816 --> 00:11:18,514
Prabhu Chawla: <i>Haan</i>, he is not involved at all.
Niira Radia: Why?

109
00:11:18,514 --> 00:11:26,224
Prabhu Chawla: 'Cause he doesn't trust my son also, in this case. (laughs) Anil doesn't trust my son.
Niira Radia: Your son is with whom now?

110
00:11:26,224 --> 00:11:31,482
Prabhu Chawla: He is a retainer for Anil <i>naa</i>. He is independent. He is running his own independent company.

111
00:11:31,482 --> 00:11:37,262
Prabhu Chawla: He is not with Rian any more.
Niira Radia: <i>Haan...</i> (Yes...)
Prabhu Chawla: He is running his own solicitor firm.
Niira Radia: <i>Haan haan...</i> (Yes,...)

112
00:11:37,262 --> 00:11:45,713
Prabhu Chawla: He was retained by various people...10-12 <i>log hain isme</i> Anil's mobile is one company which retains him.
Niira Radia: <i>Haan...</i>

113
00:11:45,713 --> 00:11:55,735
Prabhu Chawla: But in this case he is not involved. But <i>idhar udhar se pick up toh karte hain na cheezein sab</i>.
Niira Radia: Right, right.

114
00:11:55,735 --> 00:11:59,662
Prabhu Chawla: My information is through the legal sources.
Niira Radia: Yes...

115
00:11:59,662 --> 00:12:08,850
Prabhu Chawla: Once you tell him that Prabhu was saying something about you talking to people in London, he will understand.
Niira Radia: <i>Chalo</i> (Okay) I will tell him.

116
00:12:08,850 --> 00:12:19,579
Prabhu Chawla: <i>Chhota Bhai bada haraami hai</i>. (The younger brother is a real bastard)
Niira Radia: <i>Harami to hai lekin har waqt haraamii panaa</i> last <i>nahiin kartaa naa</i>, (He is,..but that behaviour does stop somewhere) Prabhu you also know.

117
00:12:19,579 --> 00:12:29,932
Prabhu Chawla: Question is, <i>abhii</i> (now), when you are working in a system which is not clean, you have to be… <i>bhaii tumhaare ko nuksaan to ho gaya naa?

118
00:12:29,932 --> 00:12:38,323
Prabhu Chawla: Udhar</i> recovery <i>karte raho apne aap</i>. (You have already suffered a setback. And then keep trying recover yourself.) It is better to do it in a manner so that you are not the loser.

119
00:12:42,867 --> 00:12:48,757
Niira Radia: <i>Theek hai</i> (Alright...)
Prabhu Chawla: <i>Main kal jaa rahaa hun</i> Bombay. <i>Ek baar usne kahaa thaa<i> dinner </i>pe aana ghar pe</i>. That is about… He called me one day.

120
00:12:48,757 --> 00:12:55,452
Prabhu Chawla: You remember [inaudible].... I was the only senior editor there.

121
00:12:55,452 --> 00:13:02,363
Prabhu Chawla: But then after that I tried to meet him, but <i>nahin mil paayaa</i>. (...but I didn't manage to meet him.)

122
00:13:02,363 --> 00:13:06,200
Prabhu Chawla: I went a couple of times to Bombay recently but he was not there. I have been trying to reach him <i>par uske baad baat hii nahii huii</i>. (...but after that I never got to speak to him.)
[abrupt end]

